Fire Chuck Cecil....???

[SwissTitansFan]

What do you think...???

I don't think, he has it....!!!!

[Old Oilers Fan]

Personally I think it is to early I mean it is his first season as the coordinator. After all that is Schwartz defense and not his.

[don28]

The real question is:

Is Chuck Cecil really running this defense, or is Jeff Fisher running this defense with Cecil as a figurehead?

I'm not convinced that the coaching staff is all on the same page when it comes to successfully putting players in the best position to make plays.

[titansikou]

Big Al was a good player so we could have expected a bit of a drop, but the drop off we've seen between 08 and 09 is too huge. The defense lacks discipline and is often short on motivation. I blame about 70% of that on Cecil and Fisher. Cecil isn't up to it, Fisher needs a peyote fueled trip to the desert.

[TitansFan370]

The real question is:

Is Chuck Cecil really running this defense, or is Jeff Fisher running this defense with Cecil as a figurehead?

I'm not convinced that the coaching staff is all on the same page when it comes to successfully putting players in the best position to make plays.

I agree 100% with your question and your statement! And "it is Fisher running and CONTROLLING the defense". He always has. That's why we don't have Greg Williams back this year as defensive coordinator. Fisher was not willing to let GW bring his own assistants and control and run the defense.

[pookha]

The real question is:

Is Chuck Cecil really running this defense, or is Jeff Fisher running this defense with Cecil as a figurehead?

I'm not convinced that the coaching staff is all on the same page when it comes to successfully putting players in the best position to make plays.

to me it seemed cecil was far more involved then in some of the previous games.

it also became obviously clear cecil dosnt understand the concept of discipline at all.

all fire once worked in the nfl but not today with the precise high powered offensives of today and the way the rule of the game are.
if takes discipline and playing smart constantly during the game.

there was a point were cecil looked totally out of control and i wouldnt have been suprised if the refs had thrown him out of the game.

it could be that just like they had to see what vince could do cecil was unleashed too see what he could do.
especially without bulluck out there .

[gnarl]

it also became obviously clear cecil dosnt understand the concept of discipline at all.

story of our defense all year

[amy]

I wonder if Mr. Adams is already interviewing.

[pookha]

story of our defense all year

no for awhile they did get better.
the big question is why beyond the abscence of bulluck they crashed so badly.
they kept peyton contained for good parts of that game.
i see the last part of the miami game as a result of losing bulluck so suddenly but this week was a total flash back to earlier.

then again the team did this before and recovered pretty well.

[Rolltide14TOMB]

well losing Albert can be more devasting than one would think...double teams lead to single coverage on DE's....threat of run was minimal....less time for QBs throw made our secondary appear Pro Bowl material....SD could barely muster 20 pts in games we played in 07, or whichever year we lost to them twice. They could have put 60 up last night. sure he was hurt a lot but it wasnt as difficult to make up for him for just one or two games cause you knew he would be back...but we dont have the firepower to go a whole season without him. Go back to that year we were like 6-2? or something like that and al didnt play in like 3 straight games and we got blasted by Denver and Cincinatti and i think one other game.

Yes Cecil should shoulder some blame and so should fisher, but when you go from having the best DT in football to one of the worst, it is going to hurt you badly (much like the "experts" predicted...aka Tony Dungy)

[Jessestylex]

I think we need to clean house, and turn our team into a high powered offense like the Colts and Saints. Only guys i'd keep on offense if Cook, CJ,Nate and Britt.

draft a top pocket passer, and get another 6'5 WR with great hands. get a coach who loves to throw the ball. complete overhaul might get us in the SB again. Fisherball isnt the answer.

[pookha]

actually except for last night vince had been developing into a really good pocket passer.

he just has to go and study what went wrong last night and work on it.
though i think the second interception was on britt for sloppy route play.
it seemed he should have stopped at the point the ball was thrown but instead just drifted over to the side.

[pookha]

I wonder if Mr. Adams is already interviewing.

i still wouldnt have been suprised if they did have a shot at greg williams but bud's cheap side wouldnt give a job to his son.

[gnarl]

actually except for last night vince had been developing into a really good pocket passer.

he just has to go and study what went wrong last night and work on it.
though i think the second interception was on britt for sloppy route play.
it seemed he should have stopped at the point the ball was thrown but instead just drifted over to the side.

it was also a bad read, but i understand what your saying.

britt has looked good but if there is a flaw i can point out in his game its that he hardly ever comes back to the ball.

maybe its something they can work on w/ him this offseason & up his game.

after all, he did just turn 21. future is bright for this kid.

[Old Oilers Fan]

I agree 100% with your question and your statement! And "it is Fisher running and CONTROLLING the defense". He always has. That's why we don't have Greg Williams back this year as defensive coordinator. Fisher was not willing to let GW bring his own assistants and control and run the defense.

The problem with bringing back Williams is the team is not looking at the future by bringing back the past. Williams choose to move on and so should the Titans.

I feel the same about Dinger the past two seasons. I didn't see anything that tells me that it was the right move to bring back the past.

[Parddy]

I saw plenty of players in position to make plays last night, problem was, they just didn't make them.

[amy]

I saw plenty of players in position to make plays last night, problem was, they just didn't make them.

And you have to wonder why that was. I know I haven't a clue why a team who knows they had one outside chance to advance, come onto the field and play like they did. One would think that perhaps they didn't even want to advance. There is no excuse for the quality of play they showed.

[pookha]

The problem with bringing back Williams is the team is not looking at the future by bringing back the past. Williams choose to move on and so should the Titans.

I feel the same about Dinger the past two seasons. I didn't see anything that tells me that it was the right move to bring back the past.

uh ..
i credit a lot of the advancement of vince to not just vince but dinger.

[Old Oilers Fan]

uh ..
i credit a lot of the advancement of vince to not just vince but dinger.

I wasn't narrowing it down to Vince. I am talking about the offense as a whole. Dingers help to Vince wasn't effected until Vince put in the effort to improve himself to be a NFL QB. Dingers offense as a whole has no imagination. It just goes out there and tries to over power the defense.

[TRUTitan]

Don't fire Cecil! Lets promote him to HC.:slap


I think we need to clean house, and turn our team into a high powered offense like the Colts and Saints. Only guys i'd keep on offense if Cook, CJ,Nate and Britt.

draft a top pocket passer, and get another 6'5 WR with great hands. get a coach who loves to throw the ball. complete overhaul might get us in the SB again. Fisherball isnt the answer.


I agree with on the team needs an overhaul, but an all out passing attack doesn't work. It's flashy, it makes sportscenter, but it is more prone to turnovers and takes alot of time to develop. Secondly drafting a "pocket passer" is not a great idea considering the time it would take to develope him. Hell people have lost patient with Vince and he has only been starting for less than 3 seasons. It all boils down to time and let's face it the majority of the fans are a win now base.

[Sect309Fan]

I felt like this year was almost identical to Schwartz's first year. It is way too soon to consider firing Cecil.

[Yvette]

309, that's why I'm hesitant to jump on this bandwagon. I waited to see what Schwartz could do with the proper personnel and I'll wait to see what Cecil can do, too.

[TTP77]

Cecil was supposedly running Schwartz's defense...at least that's what we were told and we had the player personnel to run it. Cecil knew that defense as he has coached in it for a few years. The lack of proper player personnel excuse doesn't fly with me.

[Yvette]

Cecil was supposedly running Schwartz's defense...at least that's what we were told and we had the player personnel to run it.
The supposedly part is why I hesitate. I'm finally to the point where I don't believe anything from the BSP spin machine. Then again, the minute they say something I want to hear, I'll probably buy into it again :lol

[TTP77]

If we keep buying into it where's the accountability? This coaching staff needs a heavy dose of accountability in the offseason.

[Yvette]

How effective are fans at holding them accountable? I believe the only message that comes across loud and clear are our actions. No matter how much hell we raise, they only truly listen to the bottom line (butts in the seats and $$$).

[don28]

Cecil was supposedly running Schwartz's defense...at least that's what we were told and we had the player personnel to run it. Cecil knew that defense as he has coached in it for a few years. The lack of proper player personnel excuse doesn't fly with me.


If we keep buying into it where's the accountability? This coaching staff needs a heavy dose of accountability in the offseason.


How effective are fans at holding them accountable? I believe the only message that comes across loud and clear are our actions. No matter how much hell we raise, they only truly listen to the bottom line (butts in the seats and $$$).

If they were running Schwartz's defense, that is Problem #1. The DT's that are necessary to run that defense are in Washington and on IR. More blitzing, more stunting, and more rotations are what should have been done.

Remembering Cecil as a player, I believe that the defense would have been more aggressive had he had more say. I'm thinking closer to Gregg Williams' style, maybe not quite as aggressive.

[TTP77]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that but obviously money talks. The media buying into it and not questioning it is part of the accountability process too. The spin machine works so long as it's not questioned by either.

Anyway I've said all I"m going to say about coaching right now.

[TTP77]

If they were running Schwartz's defense, that is Problem #1. The DT's that are necessary to run that defense are in Washington and on IR. More blitzing, more stunting, and more rotations are what should have been done.

Remembering Cecil as a player, I believe that the defense would have been more aggressive had he had more say. I'm thinking closer to Gregg Williams' style, maybe not quite as aggressive.

We did have Tony Brown and Haye is good at the run. Marks will work well in our system he just needs a bit more work and an offseason in the strength and training program to get stronger. Vickerson is fine in spot relief at times.

We did blitz some we just aren't good at it overall. We are not built to blitz we are built to get pressure with our front 4. Besides when we did blitz our secondary sometimes got exposed without the extra help.

[TitansFan23]

I think it's a bit more complicated than that but obviously money talks. The media buying into it and not questioning it is part of the accountability process too. The spin machine works so long as it's not questioned by either.

Anyway I've said all I"m going to say about coaching right now.

The media in Nashville are Jeff Fisher's bitch!

[pookha]

If they were running Schwartz's defense, that is Problem #1. The DT's that are necessary to run that defense are in Washington and on IR. More blitzing, more stunting, and more rotations are what should have been done.

Remembering Cecil as a player, I believe that the defense would have been more aggressive had he had more say. I'm thinking closer to Gregg Williams' style, maybe not quite as aggressive.

being agressive isnt the issue.
if anything they are too agressive without enough discipline.
if you dont have the same level of strength along the dline then there are plays were the players work together to overcome this.
what we saw friday were players just rushing in .

being too agressive is what caught finnegan.

now there is playing hard with discipline.
would be nice to see more of that.

how cecil comes across just bothers me.
if things are not going his way he either seems to be just totally unsure or in a mouth foaming rage.

now a show of emotion is good now and again to get your teams attention .
but, when it just goes on and on ...
uh no.

[Yvette]

I agree about Cecil and his temperament. His flag was a big no-no.

[pookha]

and he didnt stop after the flag.
they had a close up on him after the flag and he was just beserk.
considering an official was right there he was lucky not to get another the way he was carrying on.

[Old Oilers Fan]

We did have Tony Brown and Haye is good at the run. Marks will work well in our system he just needs a bit more work and an offseason in the strength and training program to get stronger. Vickerson is fine in spot relief at times.

We did blitz some we just aren't good at it overall. We are not built to blitz we are built to get pressure with our front 4. Besides when we did blitz our secondary sometimes got exposed without the extra help.

Which one of our defensive linemen required a double team blocking all year? Schwartz defense only looked good this past two years. The rest of the years it looked just like they did this year.

I feel that Cecil has three years to show that his defense is going in the right direction. It is a shame that his first year was wasted on running a defensive vision of a coach who has parted. The last coach that was ask to do that didn't get a chance in the NFL. Yes I am talking about Chow.

[TTP77]

No way Fisher and his coaching staff gets 3 more years to prove themselves. Fisher is running out of time and his time is up with a lot of people.

[Old Oilers Fan]

No way Fisher and his coaching staff gets 3 more years to prove themselves. Fisher is running out of time and his time is up with a lot of people.

I agree. This team needs a different direction.

I am just saying it takes a coach at least three years to show a change. It takes time to get the right personal that fits your scheme.

[Sect309Fan]

No way Fisher and his coaching staff gets 3 more years to prove themselves. Fisher is running out of time and his time is up with a lot of people.

And that is when Fisher does his best. I fully expect the Titans to make the playoffs next year.

[TTP77]

Yea and then go one and done again? I'm not convinced we'll make the playoffs either. Too many teams will load up next year to make a run given the CBA. Will we be one of them? You give Fisher far too much credit I think.

[TTP77]

The media in Nashville are Jeff Fisher's bitch!

The local media has been more critical of Fisher this year than I can recall in the past. Kuharsky in particular. The national media is still singing his praises.

I just want to see if the tough questions get asked in the offseason. And what the answers will be.

[Sect309Fan]

Yea and then go one and done again? I'm not convinced we'll make the playoffs either. Too many teams will load up next year to make a run given the CBA. Will we be one of them? You give Fisher far too much credit I think.

Fisher has proven himself every single time that his job is in danger. Until he doesn't, I want him as head coach.

Now will we win a playoff game in 2010? That's way too hard to predict. We did do it in 2002 and didn't in 2007 (this year is 2001 and 2006 combined). We will just have to see.


I admit this was perhaps Fisher's worst year as head coach. It happens to them all. But I am going to be doing my best to quash Fisher-hate this whole offseason if I have to. Bud isn't firing him or any other coach on this staff after this season. Hopefully the fans will understand that soon enough.

[TTP77]

We are at the bottom of the AFC South. Scraping the bottom actually. We wasted a good opportunity this year with poor personnel decisions and extremely questionable coaching. Fisher is a perennially underachiever in the playoffs. He is an average coach otherwise.

Fisher hate LMAO! Please....

[Sect309Fan]

Just a reminder that Gregg Williams inherited the #6 defense in the league, and it turned into #22 in his first year (1997).

The first year is almost always tough.

[Sect309Fan]

Fisher is a perennially underachiever in the playoffs.



He has lost only 2 games he was favored in. He won two games as an underdog. I don't see that as underachieving.

[TTP77]

You are in the minority then. Keep drinking the koolaid. The numbers speak for themselves. I'd agree that Fisher somewhat overachieves when he has lesser talent on the roster. But he underachieves when he has a good team.

Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into this debate until after the season is over.

[Old Oilers Fan]

I am going to be doing my best to quash Fisher-hate this whole offseason

Good luck with that. :lol

I feel the hate is going to be the number one topic this offseason. Last season spoiled everyone. I wish people would remember what kind of team they thought we had before last season started. I think this year team played like we thought last year team was going to. This is the same team except for Haynesworth.

[Old Oilers Fan]

You are in the minority then. Keep drinking the koolaid. The numbers speak for themselves. I'd agree that Fisher somewhat overachieves when he has lesser talent on the roster. But he underachieves when he has a good team.

Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into this debate until after the season is over.

You keep saying that but it is hard for you isn't it. :lol

[TTP77]

hehe yes it is! :lmao

[Sect309Fan]

Good luck with that. :lol

I feel the hate is going to be the number one topic this offseason.

There has to be some controversy every offseason. However, I doubt Fisher will be the #1 topic. My guess will be how to rebuild the defense is #1 which involves who to keep, who to pick up, and who to draft.

The CBA debate could loom large as well. I don't think we all understand how big a genie the NFL would be letting out of the bottle if the salary cap goes away. The players have already stated that if it goes away, it isn't coming back (which is pretty stupid of them, since the salary cap is great for probably 90% of the players).

At least the Vince Young debate should be pretty quiet, which would be a first. ;)

[TTP77]

Fisher has proven himself every single time that his job is in danger. Until he doesn't, I want him as head coach.

Let me ask you this...why should we have to wait until Fisher's job is on the line to get a good coaching performance from him? Shouldn't he bring his A game every year?

[Sect309Fan]

Let me ask you this...why should we have to wait until Fisher's job is on the line to get a good coaching performance from him? Shouldn't he bring his A game every year?

It's not like that is the only time he is good. Look at 2000, 2003, 2007, and 2008. Those were pretty good years when he wasn't in any danger of losing his job.

But he was in danger in 1999, 2002, and 2006, and he coached quite well those years.

[SouthSide Titan]

I'm not sure Fisher or Cecil is to blame.He may be somewhat close-minded but as far as blaming him,I can't.Our problem is we don't make the big play consistently.KR and PR should be on our draftboard as well as a db.

[TitansFan23]

Someone has to shoulder the blame.

Is it the players? Who drafted/signed them?

Is it the system? Who implements that?

We can't keep blaming Floyd for getting us into cap hell, he's long gone.

[TTP77]

It's not like that is the only time he is good. Look at 2000, 2003, 2007, and 2008. Those were pretty good years when he wasn't in any danger of losing his job.

But he was in danger in 1999, 2002, and 2006, and he coached quite well those years.

pretty good = average. it's not even about winning versus losing anymore for me anyway. no one wants to lose but it sure tastes a lot better when you aren't choking on your own spleen. Fisher's teams seem to specialize in poor undisciplined play especially when it matters most. We beat ourselves far too often. How is that good coaching? It's just not.

[Sect309Fan]

If you are in the playoffs, then your team is above average. Period. Only 12 of the 32 teams make it.


As for the penalities, they are what they are. The defensive line is taught to be agressive with the snap count, and it hurts them from time to time.

[TITAN 1]

i still wouldnt have been suprised if they did have a shot at greg williams but bud's cheap side wouldn't give a job to his son.Doesn't he pay his coaches very well? Last time I looked it up, coach Fisher was the highest paid head coach in in the top three sports.

[Sect309Fan]

Doesn't he pay his coaches very well? Last time I looked it up, coach Fisher was the highest paid head coach in in the top three sports.

http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-highest-paid-sports-coaches-in-the-world/

He is tied at #1 for NFL coaches with Lovie Smith.

But there are 4 NBA coaches ahead of him.

[TITAN 1]

http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-highest-paid-sports-coaches-in-the-world/

He is tied at #1 for NFL coaches with Lovie Smith.

But there are 4 NBA coaches ahead of him.I knew he was up there.

[TitansFan370]

i still wouldnt have been suprised if they did have a shot at greg williams but bud's cheap side wouldnt give a job to his son.

It wasn't Bud who would not let Greg Williams come and bring his son. It was none other than JEFF FISHER! No significant changes to the coaching staff will be made unless Fisher is fired!

[Sect309Fan]

No significant changes to the coaching staff will be made unless Fisher is fired!

Actually if Fisher is fired, the whole coaching staff would likely be gone. Personally, I really like this coaching staff. I would hate to lose a Washburn and Munchack.

[TitansFan370]

Actually if Fisher is fired, the whole coaching staff would likely be gone. Personally, I really like this coaching staff. I would hate to lose a Washburn and Munchack.

That's the risk you have to take and after 15 years, it is a risk worth taking.

[TITAN 1]

That's the risk you have to take and after 15 years, it is a risk worth taking.
Not to me! I would hate to lose Fisher. I was down on him after the beating by New England but after careful thought, I can't think of ANYONE I would rather have.:thumbsup

[Yvette]

I'm still down on him and also can't think of anyone else I'd rather have.

[TitansFan23]

I'm still down on him and also can't think of anyone else I'd rather have.

As far as big names go, there's Bill Cowher, but I seriously doubt he'd be interested in coming to Tennessee, especially when he can coach in Tampa.

Brian Schottenheimer would be a good choice.

Remember, Jeff wasn't a big name when he took over for Pardee.

[HALL45ROX]

I say we promote Cecil to head coach

[TITAN 1]

I say we promote Cecil to head coach

:lolhit

[RallyRedBmore]

As far as big names go, there's Bill Cowher, but I seriously doubt he'd be interested in coming to Tennessee, especially when he can coach in Tampa.

Marty Schottenheimer would be a good choice.

Remember, Jeff wasn't a big name when he took over for Pardee.

fixed

[Yvette]

Marty? :hide

[RallyRedBmore]

let me rephrase... marty is the only Schottenheimer i would ever want coaching my team... i in now way want fish gone, no matter what

[barnybyrd]

Anyway, I'm not getting drawn into this debate until after the season is over.


You already have been, drawn in that is. :p

[pookha]

It wasn't Bud who would not let Greg Williams come and bring his son. It was none other than JEFF FISHER! No significant changes to the coaching staff will be made unless Fisher is fired!

really have any proof..
especially considering how close greg and fisher are...
and i have heard more then one person in the media say that while fisher is yes paid well bud is stingy when it comes to paying the assitants.

this is one reason why mcginnis wont take the dcoordinator position.

[don28]

being agressive isnt the issue.
if anything they are too agressive without enough discipline....

being too agressive is what caught finnegan.

now there is playing hard with discipline.
would be nice to see more of that.

What I meant by aggressive is being aggressive while under control. Just as one can be too passive, one can be too aggressive and commit penalties.



...The CBA debate could loom large as well. I don't think we all understand how big a genie the NFL would be letting out of the bottle if the salary cap goes away. The players have already stated that if it goes away, it isn't coming back (which is pretty stupid of them, since the salary cap is great for probably 90% of the players)....

The salary cap does not benefit any players, in any sport. The salary cap benefits the owners and the fans in smaller market cities who don't have to watch their teams become pseudo-minor league teams for the big boys.

[Jones31]

let me rephrase... marty is the only Schottenheimer i would ever want coaching my team... i in now way want fish gone, no matter what

Do you not want to win in the playoffs?
Zero playoff wins.

[RallyRedBmore]

yea, well brian has 0 wins as well as a head coach(im aware he has never been, my point stands)...again, mearly stating that if we had to have a Schottenheimer, id want marty.

that said, i dont want any Schottenheimer

[pookha]

The salary cap does not benefit any players, in any sport. The salary cap benefits the owners and the fans in smaller market cities who don't have to watch their teams become pseudo-minor league teams for the big boys.


ah yes it does.
because it also sets a floor that teams can not spend below.
at least the nfl version of it does.

if the cap goes away so does the minimum.

[TTP77]

You already have been, drawn in that is. :p

:lol there's really not much of a debate around here. too many people are paralyzed by fear of change. but someone has to ask why we played sloppy undisciplined football for the better part of this past year and in last year's playoff game. It's puzzling and not just a lil bit frightening that fans aren't demanding better. It's not like Fisher has to be fired just held accountable.

[ZachLV27]

:lol there's really not much of a debate around here. too many people are paralyzed by fear of change. but someone has to ask why we played sloppy undisciplined football for the better part of this past year and in last year's playoff game. It's puzzling and not just a lil bit frightening that fans aren't demanding better. It's not like Fisher has to be fired just held accountable.

The games I usually get on tv have to do with the Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos, Cardinals, and the Chargers (Chargers were top team in Vegas market but don't see them here). It's not that some of us are scared of change. It's more that I don't want our team to turn into the garbage that some of these cities put out. Fisher might not be the greatest coach ever and might not give us the best chance to win it all but he does keep us from being perennial losers.

Ask the fans of some of the really bad teams each year how they feel about Fisher and every single one of them would love to have them as their coach. Try going through 5 or 6 years of knowing your team has absolutely no shot in 70% of the games they play in and then tell me the risk is worth it. I'll gladly take having a shot at the playoffs most seasons over a really good team for 2 years followed by 5 or 6 years of an extremely horrible team.

[TTP77]

The games I usually get on tv have to do with the Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks, Broncos, Cardinals, and the Chargers (Chargers were top team in Vegas market but don't see them here). It's not that some of us are scared of change. It's more that I don't want our team to turn into the garbage that some of these cities put out. Fisher might not be the greatest coach ever and might not give us the best chance to win it all but he does keep us from being perennial losers.

Ask the fans of some of the really bad teams each year how they feel about Fisher and every single one of them would love to have them as their coach. Try going through 5 or 6 years of knowing your team has absolutely no shot in 70% of the games they play in and then tell me the risk is worth it. I'll gladly take having a shot at the playoffs most seasons over a really good team for 2 years followed by 5 or 6 years of an extremely horrible team.

Of those teams you quote only the Raiders have made poor coaching decisions and that's due to crazy Al. The Seahawks have a terrible team talent wise and made poor personnel choices. McDaniels has struggled some but the Broncos have been far better this year than last.

Bud hired Jeff Fisher and that turned out pretty well. And once again read what I said. It's not like I'm saying Fisher should be fired. At least not yet. Just held accountable. Fear of change is paralyzing and leads to complacency.

Ask yourself this....Does Fisher deserve a life time job without any regard to his job performance?

I say no.

[Sect309Fan]

Ask yourself this....Does Fisher deserve a life time job without any regard to his job performance?

I say no.

The problem is the definition of "job performance". We all have different mindsets on what that really is.

Some fans think that a Super Bowl win is it. If that doesn't happen, then the coach should be replaced after so many years.

I am more of the mindset of the "big picture".
1. Does Fisher make the playoffs on a regular basis? Yes, 6 of the past 11 years.
2. Does Fisher win playoff games? He did it in half of those 6 years, reaching a Super Bowl and an AFC Championship game. Could be better, but definitely could be worse,
3. Are the Titans known for late season collapses? Deifinitely not
4. Do the Titans get better as the year progresses? More often than not.
5. Are the Titans are well run team? I would have to say so. We have one of the most repsected coaching staffs in the NFL.
6. Does Fisher meet or exceed expectations? Definitely more often than not. This year was one of the few exceptions, but even then, getting to .500 after an 0-6 start would be an accomplishment.

If Fisher were to fail to miss the playoffs next year, I would consider a coaching change. But this year is way too early.

[Old Oilers Fan]

Talking about a Thread hijack!!! :lol

I think what I would like to see the most is Fisher go to a different route. Change something up. Just throw a loop into the other teams game plan.

[TTP77]

The problem is the definition of "job performance". We all have different mindsets on what that really is.

Some fans think that a Super Bowl win is it. If that doesn't happen, then the coach should be replaced after so many years.

There's no more "big picture" than looking at overall job performance by a team with a great deal of talent. This Titans team grossly underachieved. If we are trying to make the SB every year then why do we even have an NFL team? The SB is the goal....period. But most fans understand how hard that is to obtain.


1. Does Fisher make the playoffs on a regular basis? Yes, 6 of the past 11 years.

And what is his record? Not that good really. but then you answered that in #2. :lol


2. Does Fisher win playoff games? He did it in half of those 6 years, reaching a Super Bowl and an AFC Championship game. Could be better, but definitely could be worse,


3. Are the Titans known for late season collapses? Deifinitely not

There's a contigent of fans who think we did collapse late last year and it carried over into this season. We lost the majority of our late games last year and started 0-6. I'd define that as a collapse.


4. Do the Titans get better as the year progresses? More often than not.

See last season. We did not progress as the year went on.


5. Are the Titans are well run team? I would have to say so. We have one of the most repsected coaching staffs in the NFL.

It's all about performance. I like our coaching staff too but this staff did a terrible job the past 18 months and needs to be held accountable. We can't live in the past.


6. Does Fisher meet or exceed expectations? Definitely more often than not. This year was one of the few exceptions, but even then, getting to .500 after an 0-6 start would be an accomplishment.

Sorry, I'm not satisfied with going 8-8. That does not meet my expectations. I demand better as a fan.


If Fisher were to fail to miss the playoffs next year, I would consider a coaching change. But this year is way too early.

Again, I'm only saying fans are entitled to ask the tough questions on why this team played crap football for the better part of the past 24 games. That's all I'm saying.

[Sect309Fan]

My definition of "late season collapse" is like the Broncos last year or the Giants this year. When you start of strong but miss the playoffs.

Exactly what do you mean be being "held accountable"? Every time I hear that with coaches, it usually means someone needs to be fired. Is there some other way to do it? I don't think anyone needs to be fired this season.

[TTP77]

My definition of "late season collapse" is like the Broncos last year or the Giants this year. When you start of strong but miss the playoffs.

That's too narrow. A late season collapse also includes starting strong enough to make the playoffs and then losing your last 4 games including your first game in the playoffs. See the Vikings this year. They are suffering the same late season collapse that we did.


Exactly what do you mean be being "held accountable"? Every time I hear that with coaches, it usually means someone needs to be fired. Is there some other way to do it? I don't think anyone needs to be fired this season.

An acknowledgment of the issues and a vow to correct the problems would be a good start, no? I'm also concerned about Fisher's ability to judge personnel and formulate the roster but I'm not sure what we can do about that. I understand it's written in his contract. For the record I think you are holding Fisher accountable and we aren't that far apart on our opinion on the coaching situation. :thumbsup

I just think Fisher and his coaching staff needs to be on the hot seat and with good reason.

[Old Oilers Fan]

There's no more "big picture" than looking at overall job performance by a team with a great deal of talent. This Titans team grossly underachieved.

Where is this great deal of talent? This team was built from potential players and underachievers from other teams.

[TTP77]

Where is this great deal of talent? This team was built from potential players and underachievers from other teams.

We have basically the same team from last year. How many pro bowlers did we have? We have the best running back in the league. We "supposedly" have the best Oline in the league. Tony Brown is rated one of the best DT's in the league. William Hayes and Jacob Ford are rising stars. Keith Bulluck is one of the best LB's in the game. The Titans were regarded as SB contenders at the start of the season. Saying now that we aren't talented is just an excuse...IMHO. :p :lol

[Old Oilers Fan]

We have basically the same team from last year. How many pro bowlers did we have? We have the best running back in the league. We "supposedly" have the best Oline in the league. Tony Brown is rated one of the best DT's in the league. William Hayes and Jacob Ford are rising stars. Keith Bulluck is one of the best LB's in the game. The Titans were regarded as SB contenders at the start of the season. Saying now that we aren't talented is just an excuse...IMHO. :p :lol

I think I said this before at least thought it, but this same team was predicted to play like we did this year last year. Did this team over achieved last year? I am not making excuses I am also vary disappointed in the Titans performance this year. Most of the talent that this team has couldn't make it on other teams because they have better players. What stars that this team have was built by Fisher and his staff. They were not big name players coming out of the Draft they all just had the potential to become big names.

Darn it now we are back at square one. What do we do about Fisher? Or I should say do we fire Chuck Cecil?

:lol

[Yvette]

An acknowledgment of the issues and a vow to correct the problems would be a good start, no?
He always does that and we always have a good week of practice :lol

People complain all the time with calls into the radio and posts on boards, newspapers. Fisher occasionally acknowledges some issues and discards the rest. Some of our local sports media are bipolar with extreme mood swings toward Fisher. The rest seem to like him or what he has to offer, and give him lots of breaks.

I've always said money talks and BS walks and that's pretty much the way the NFL sees it. The most effective way to hold the franchise accountable is to stop buying merchandise and stop attending the games. I'm not going to do that.

The most effective way to hold the media accountable is to voice our displeasure on their turf, then stop listening to the radio, buying the paper or giving them hits on the web. I'm not doing that either.

I'm not prepared to walk the walk so I'll stick with the status quo, squeaking out a whine every now and then.

[Jones31]

Cecil says he was penalized for yelling at fellow coaches (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/29/cecil-says-he-was-penalized-for-yelling-at-fellow-coaches/)
:bsflag

[JimOkc]

I don't think that Cecil should be fired. I think that he should have more time to "prove" himself as a DC.

I don't see that Bud does anything with Fisher, he is still under contract and his team did start out 0-6 and made a great turnaround.

The coaches don't play. It is up to the players to execute and make plays. If they don't, it sure can make a good team (staff included) look horrible. There were a lot of times this year that that was the case.

Football to me is such a close game most times, in terms of making plays. Look at an instance in the last game, I thought that Cort had a pick, and would have but for a great throw and maybe about an inch and a partial second.

[TitansFan370]

really have any proof..
especially considering how close greg and fisher are...
and i have heard more then one person in the media say that while fisher is yes paid well bud is stingy when it comes to paying the assitants.

this is one reason why mcginnis wont take the dcoordinator position.

Greg Williams shared this info with Saints fans during the season. Saints fans now adore Greg Williams and Sean Peyton.

If assistants don't get paid well in TN then I think Fisher who retains all control over assistants is responsible. However, I am not at all sure our assistants are not well paid. Jeff, at $5.5 million a year is one of the two highest paid head coaches in the NFL. (I got that from another thread on this forum.) It would not make sense for him to be so well paid and his assistants not.

[Yvette]

Fisher doesn't control the checkbook ;)

[pookha]

We have basically the same team from last year. How many pro bowlers did we have? We have the best running back in the league. We "supposedly" have the best Oline in the league. Tony Brown is rated one of the best DT's in the league. William Hayes and Jacob Ford are rising stars. Keith Bulluck is one of the best LB's in the game. The Titans were regarded as SB contenders at the start of the season. Saying now that we aren't talented is just an excuse...IMHO. :p :lol


uh,,
we had a whole lot more injuries this year then last year.

[pookha]

Greg Williams shared this info with Saints fans during the season. Saints fans now adore Greg Williams and Sean Peyton.

If assistants don't get paid well in TN then I think Fisher who retains all control over assistants is responsible. However, I am not at all sure our assistants are not well paid. Jeff, at $5.5 million a year is one of the two highest paid head coaches in the NFL. (I got that from another thread on this forum.) It would not make sense for him to be so well paid and his assistants not.

:p:lol

as yvette said fisher does not control the check book.
and for a long time bud had a really bad rep for getting cheap about odd stuff.

i got to hear some stuff from people who knew the players like bruce who started with the team back in houston.
they used to be know for how cheaply bud wanted the team to travel.

so yeah i could believe some of the reports that the assistants are not as highly paid.

and that some of the exceptional people they got like gunther was because fisher had made a point to reach out to them.

and once again..
greg and fisher had been friends for a long long time.
it dosnt make sense for fisher to reject greg.

heck if you want to blame some one possibly blame haynesworth..
:P;)

the titans were going to make a run for him and if they did bud would have to have the cash for the signing bonus on hand (or the assumption would be they would.. though washington has put off a big chunck till after the season)
if they did get him back.

a lot of fans dont understnd this.
signing bonus unless some if put off as a roster bonus (what happened with some of albert's washington money_)
has to be paid right then and there.
it can be prorated over several years as a cap hit but it is paid at the time of the signing.

maybe the idea of dealing with this made bud go cheap head.
;)

[pookha]

Cecil says he was penalized for yelling at fellow coaches (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/29/cecil-says-he-was-penalized-for-yelling-at-fellow-coaches/)
:bsflag

well it dosnt work considering they showed him still yelling at the official after getting the flag.
still think he was lucky not getting another flag.

:slap

[pookha]

An acknowledgment of the issues and a vow to correct the problems would be a good start, no?.

actually for the morale of the team; especially a team with a key number of younger players that might be the worst thing.
at least to do it in public.

you acknowledge stuff in private with the team; either as individuals or the team as a whole.

fisher in the past has called out some players.
but the feeling always has been he does it as a last resort.\
and mostly with the veterans.

and to do so especially after this team tried so hard to turn it around (despite the anomaly of the last game) it may even be counterproductive to have a highly critical press conference just to satisify some fans.

[TTP77]

actually for the morale of the team; especially a team with a key number of younger players that might be the worst thing.
at least to do it in public.

you acknowledge stuff in private with the team; either as individuals or the team as a whole.

fisher in the past has called out some players.
but the feeling always has been he does it as a last resort.\
and mostly with the veterans.

and to do so especially after this team tried so hard to turn it around (despite the anomaly of the last game) it may even be counterproductive to have a highly critical press conference just to satisify some fans.

:bsflag He can acknowledge we had far too many mental mistakes and penalties without "calling anyone out." Good god it's not like it's a secret or anything. These are grown men and if they can't handle a dose of criticism then they need to grow a pair.

If there is no accountability at the top how can there be any accountability elsewhere. I don't expect him to call out his coaching staff but I do hope he addresses some of the poor coaching effort by the assistants.

[TTP77]

I don't think that Cecil should be fired. I think that he should have more time to "prove" himself as a DC.

I don't see that Bud does anything with Fisher, he is still under contract and his team did start out 0-6 and made a great turnaround.

The coaches don't play. It is up to the players to execute and make plays. If they don't, it sure can make a good team (staff included) look horrible. There were a lot of times this year that that was the case.

Football to me is such a close game most times, in terms of making plays. Look at an instance in the last game, I thought that Cort had a pick, and would have but for a great throw and maybe about an inch and a partial second.

Jim, I respect your opinion but you can't praise a coach for turning things around when the players play well and not criticize the coach when things are going poorly and the players are making mistakes and playing poorly. It only works that way in an excuse filled world. If Fisher gets credit for the good play he has to get the blame for the bad play too.

[TTP77]

uh,,
we had a whole lot more injuries this year then last year.

And Jeff Fisher made poor personnel decisions that crippled the team when injuries occurred. I called it before the preseason even started.

[TTP77]

He always does that and we always have a good week of practice :lol

People complain all the time with calls into the radio and posts on boards, newspapers. Fisher occasionally acknowledges some issues and discards the rest. Some of our local sports media are bipolar with extreme mood swings toward Fisher. The rest seem to like him or what he has to offer, and give him lots of breaks.

I've always said money talks and BS walks and that's pretty much the way the NFL sees it. The most effective way to hold the franchise accountable is to stop buying merchandise and stop attending the games. I'm not going to do that.

The most effective way to hold the media accountable is to voice our displeasure on their turf, then stop listening to the radio, buying the paper or giving them hits on the web. I'm not doing that either.

I'm not prepared to walk the walk so I'll stick with the status quo, squeaking out a whine every now and then.

I just know I'm extremely apathetic right now. Maybe that will change. Watching this team fumble and bumble their way through games this year has sucked the wind out of me in regard to the Titans. Maybe that will change and if I'm feeling better tomorrow we are still going to the Seattle game because I'm not going to disappoint my nephew. I'm not even all that excited about CJ's record chase anymore. :sad

[Sect309Fan]

And Jeff Fisher made poor personnel decisions that crippled the team when injuries occurred. I called it before the preseason even started.

Besides for not bringing in a vet corner (until after the first Colts game), what else did he do wrong on the injury front? He did draft two cornerbacks (which the Titans have usually done well with), and it was just terrible luck that we lost both corners and nickleback for three games.

No team can survive the loss of three starters in the secondary. And it didn't help that Griffin and Hope, two Pro Bowl safeties from 2008, had down years as well.

[TTP77]

We started the season without a veteran backup at CB. There were options at returner but we did nothing. Those two positions alone cost us at least 2 games if not more.

[Sect309Fan]

We started the season without a veteran backup at CB. There were options at returner but we did nothing. Those two positions alone cost us at least 2 games if not more.

Returner really had nothing to do with injuries. It was just cornerback. So I don't buy the whole "Jeff Fisher made poor personnel decisions that crippled the team when injuries occurred". It was really one decision, and I think Fisher felt like one of the rookie corners could handle the job if a starter got hurt. (It has worked in other years)

As it turned out, he was wrong. We did need a vet corner, but at least he picked up Hood after the Colts game. If Hood gets an interception or two against Seattle (someone should get at least one), then hopefully he will be given a chance to start next year, or at least be a vet backup.

[Yvette]

I just know I'm extremely apathetic right now. Maybe that will change.
It will and I hope you make a miraculous overnight recovery! Right now you're not the same person who was like the Energizer Bunny after the Phins game. You were the only one who was excited by the win :thumbsup

[TTP77]

Maybe. :lol I don't think my opinion on Fisher is going to change though. I just wish fans would quit giving him excuses. Just call it like it is. Fisher isn't perfect. You can admit it. Admission is the first step to recovery. ;)

[TTP77]

Returner really had nothing to do with injuries. It was just cornerback. So I don't buy the whole "Jeff Fisher made poor personnel decisions that crippled the team when injuries occurred". It was really one decision, and I think Fisher felt like one of the rookie corners could handle the job if a starter got hurt. (It has worked in other years)

As it turned out, he was wrong. We did need a vet corner, but at least he picked up Hood after the Colts game. If Hood gets an interception or two against Seattle (someone should get at least one), then hopefully he will be given a chance to start next year, or at least be a vet backup.

just more excuses. Fisher gets all the credit for the good things and no blame for the bad things. I gotcha.

[Sect309Fan]

just more excuses. Fisher gets all the credit for the good things and no blame for the bad things. I gotcha.

I am not saying that. It just appears he gets blamed too much for the bad things.

0-6? Look at the record of the teams we faced. We aren't the only team that would have been 0-6 against that schedule.
No playoff wins in 6 years? We are in good company there. Half the AFC teams are in the same boat.

Don't we have a GM, or did that position get abolished? Shouldn't the players have some accountability as well?

We know what things Fisher should be blamed for. Let's just no go overboard and blame everything on him.

[TTP77]

It works both ways. You can go overboard blaming him. But you can also go overboard excusing him too. That Music City Miracles article is a perfect example as are threads on other boards. Fisher shouldn't be given a free pass.

[Sect309Fan]

What I hate are fans that just say "Fisher has been here for 15 years, and the Titans haven't won a Super Bowl. Let's get rid of him."

Here are my reasons to fire a coach:
1. Wins 2 games or less in a season
2. Loses the team (no control)
3. Can't get to the playoffs on a consistent basis
4. Does something illegal
5. Team can't sell out due to apathy toward the team

I like Super Bowl championships, but they are like lottery picks. Once you get to the playoffs, any team can win. It all depends on the matchups. The Steelers, Patriots, Colts, and Chargers have all had the best team in the AFC and not won a Super Bowl with that team. It is unpredictable.

[barnybyrd]

Jim, I respect your opinion but you can't praise a coach for turning things around when the players play well and not criticize the coach when things are going poorly and the players are making mistakes and playing poorly. It only works that way in an excuse filled world. If Fisher gets credit for the good play he has to get the blame for the bad play too.

And if the players get the praise for playing good, they should get the blame when they play poorly not only the coaches.

After all:

:These are grown men and if they can't handle a dose of criticism then they need to grow a pair.

[pookha]

no one is giving him a free pass but i think it is just crazy how fans think another great coach will just fall out of the tree.

and so much of the stuff thrown at fisher is exactly the same things thrown at cowher even during the season the steelers finally won the superbowl.

but yet cowher is near the top on the list of a lot of the people who want fisher fired.

and guess what trying to find a returner is hard.
how many people are aware of the struggles chris carr had with the ravens return game.
they yanked him a time or two but put him back because they couldnt find much better (well as of about a month ago)

and oh yeah bobby wade.. well he did ok at first but now the cheifs fans are upset because he drops the ball or dosnt let it go in the end zone for touch backs.

it isnt easy finding people for the return game.
just check around the games some times and see how some of the names change during the season.

no fisher isnt perfect but as a long time nfl fan i have seen how bad things can get when owners start playing musical chairs looking for the next hot coach.

[TTP77]

Titans DC Chuck Cecil fined $20,000 by league for verbally abusing assistant coaches...uh, game officials.

Per Mort tweet

[Yvette]

All this emphasizes it truly is a team issue, from Bud down to the waterboy. This season has been an aberration, even the turnaround. It shouldn't have happened but somehow it did. Sometimes I wonder which card was the first to fall in this house, then I figure an earthquake collapsed them all at the same time :lol

[TTP77]

And if the players get the praise for playing good, they should get the blame when they play poorly not only the coaches.

After all:

I completely agree. I never said the players shouldn't be accountable. They should be and so should the coaches.

[pookha]

And Jeff Fisher made poor personnel decisions that crippled the team when injuries occurred. I called it before the preseason even started.

and where were these magical players??

one thing i am curious about.
is for some one to really break down hood's play.
some players get interceptions (hill and lamont) but have other big issues else where.

or it could be issues like the coaches will call one coverage scheme but hood wanting to be a ball hawk just goes out and free lances way to often.

i wonder if there was some sign of that.

[TTP77]

Fisher has been coach for how long? Making a change would hardly be musical chairs. Change can be good too you know.

All this Fisher love is making me want to :puke

[pookha]

:bsflag He can acknowledge we had far too many mental mistakes and penalties without "calling anyone out." Good god it's not like it's a secret or anything. These are grown men and if they can't handle a dose of criticism then they need to grow a pair.

If there is no accountability at the top how can there be any accountability elsewhere. I don't expect him to call out his coaching staff but I do hope he addresses some of the poor coaching effort by the assistants.

uh didnt he do something like this after some of the losses..

whatever..

[TTP77]

and where were these magical players??

one thing i am curious about.
is for some one to really break down hood's play.
some players get interceptions (hill and lamont) but have other big issues else where.

or it could be issues like the coaches will call one coverage scheme but hood wanting to be a ball hawk just goes out and free lances way to often.

i wonder if there was some sign of that.

Hood was out there. That's a start. There were returners. Detroit traded for a CB. I can't remember his name but I can look it up. There were options but Fisher wanted to go with Cary Williams (barf), and two rookies. Having Hood would have helped while we got the rookies prepared.

Anyway, I can see I'm in the minority here so I am DONE.

[pookha]

Fisher has been coach for how long? Making a change would hardly be musical chairs. Change can be good too you know.

All this Fisher love is making me want to :puke

no i am just saying this was the same arguement used against cowher..

[barnybyrd]

All this Fisher love is making me want to :puke

I don't have love for Fisher or the players for that matter. They either rise or fall as a TEAM and that includes everyone from Fisher to the guys who wash the jocks. I give them all the credit for the crummy season.

[Sect309Fan]

Anyway, I can see I'm in the minority here so I am DONE.

TitansCentral is split a lot more evenly. ;)

The problem is that we get into the same circular arguments like we all did for Pacman and Vince. There are some very good reasons to keep Fisher, and there are certainly valid reasons to change coaches. There isn't really a right or wrong, but it does force us to choose sides (if we want to debate it).

[Yvette]

There isn't really a right or wrong, but it does force us to choose sides (if we want to debate it).
I've skimmed all the debates and I can see both sides. Next year will decide for me.

[Sect309Fan]

I've skimmed all the debates and I can see both sides. Next year will decide for me.

You picked a side, though. The "wait till next year" side. :D

[Jones31]

Tennessee Titans' defensive coordinator Chuck Cecil fined $20,000 for yelling at officials -

[Titanico]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP)—The NFL has fined Tennessee defensive coordinator Chuck Cecil $20,000 for prohibited verbal abuse of a game official as a result of his sideline comments in the Titans’ 42-17 loss to San Diego on Christmas night.

The Titans had just been flagged for roughing Philip Rivers when an official heard Cecil say something. The Titans were penalized another 15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Coach Jeff Fisher defended his first-year coordinator, saying Cecil was overheard talking to fellow coaches on his headset.

This isn’t the first time this season the NFL has fined someone other than a Tennessee player.

Titans owner Bud Adams was fined $250,000 for obscene hand gestures after a 41-17 win over Buffalo on Nov. 15.

ESPN.com first reported the fine.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-titans-coachfined&prov=ap&type=lgns)

[MDK Titan]

when I got the ESPN alert I first read that he got "fired" then re-reading it I realized it said "fined" :p

[TTP77]

TitansCentral is split a lot more evenly. ;)

The problem is that we get into the same circular arguments like we all did for Pacman and Vince. There are some very good reasons to keep Fisher, and there are certainly valid reasons to change coaches. There isn't really a right or wrong, but it does force us to choose sides (if we want to debate it).

This debate reminds me of what happened right after camp when cuts were announced and I said Fisher made a mistake with the roster. I just feel like we wasted this season and now some of my favorite players are likely gone. :sad Fisher is going to get another chance but those veteran guys who are likely gone won't get one at least not here. So yea I'm not giving Fisher an easy ride.

[Old Oilers Fan]

Maybe we need to see why the Titans lost some of these games and see if it was coaching or players. Lets start with the playoff lost to the Ravens. The Titans lost because of the fumbles. Steelers miss FG. Texans poor defense. See what I am getting at? Now if one of you posters that is good at breaking down the games can please help this dumb ass out so we all can evaluate it I would be very grateful. :thumbsup

:lol

[Old Oilers Fan]

I guess maybe next year? :lol

[hooktool]

Anyway, I can see I'm in the minority here so I am DONE.


This debate reminds me of what happened right after camp when cuts were announced and I said Fisher made a mistake with the roster. I just feel like we wasted this season and now some of my favorite players are likely gone. :sad Fisher is going to get another chance but those veteran guys who are likely gone won't get one at least not here. So yea I'm not giving Fisher an easy ride.

LOL You made it just over three hours.:D

Tomorrow's a new year. Have fun in WA.:thumbsup

John

[Yvette]

Fisher is going to get another chance but those veteran guys who are likely gone won't get one at least not here.
This I can fully appreciate and agree with. I felt the same way when Bruce retired... in fact, when we lost all our SB players and now Hentrich, too.

[Orca]

You picked a side, though. The "wait till next year" side. :D

"But the others wait in Casablanca, and wait and wait and wait."
(-Casablanca)

It seemed appropriate.

[TitansFan23]

Anyway, I can see I'm in the minority here so I am DONE.

Yeah, I pretty much gave up as well.

I was called a bandwagon fan and hater for my opinions and that did it for me.

Life is too short... :thumbsup

[Yvette]

I was called a bandwagon fan and hater for my opinions and that did it for me.
I remember that and really liked the way you handled it :cool:

Anyway, I'm glad you did voice your opinion because I'm still forming mine, taking the time to see your points.

[TTP77]

LOL You made it just over three hours.:D

Tomorrow's a new year. Have fun in WA.:thumbsup

John

lol, i meant done with the debate and i am. thank you we are here and looking forward to watching CJ make history tomorrow. :cool::toast