Clutch QBs

[TRUTitan]

Well I found this article on yahoo sports.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-Shutdown-Five-Most-clutch-quarterbacks-in-t;_ylt=AjbAvQRwVgzxGj1UwN2s80pDubYF?urn=nfl,164119

Well I don't agree with it so I decided make a poll for the members of MB voice their opinions.

So who do you think is the most clutch QB out there today.

[Sect309Fan]

I like this comment:

9. Posted by steve r Mon May 18, 2009 3:27 pm EDT Report Abuse
"Do you look at Peyton Manning and say, 'He lost to Tom Brady a lot, so he must not be clutch,'"
Yes, yes you do, stupid. Thats why he has had a 1 TD, 4 INT game (or something else with other equally horrendous stats) in EVERY YEAR HE HAS APPEARED IN THE PLAYOFFS. Every year the Colts have made it to the postseason and lost, it has been because of him. And when they finally won, largely through luck, Peyton was 3:7 TD:INT.
I'd slot Vince Young in over Peyton. At least we actually HAVE seen him do something in "the big game." Even if it was in NCAA.

:thumbsup

(I voted for Big Ben)

[TRUTitan]

4. Posted by Thomas P Mon May 18, 2009 3:16 pm EDT Report Abuse
Everything written about Tom Brady should have an asterisk beside it. He cheated his way to all 3 SBs and choked in the only one he didn't know the defense's signals

I like that one.:thumbsup

[Yvette]

I had to vote for Big Ben. I asked myself if we're in the SB, we need a TD and the clock is running out, who do I trust to make it happen? I wanted to pick Brady but his injury made me doubt his body's ability to run one in if needed.

[gnarl]

is tony romo honestly in this poll?

[Nintova]

I went with McNabb. No real rhyme or reason. I just like his brand of football. He can put a team on his back ( and has ) and will them to win. The other QBs all have something to lean on.

[Fairweather Fan]

is tony romo honestly in this poll?

Tony Romo chokes. VY would be a better candidate than Romo.

[TRUTitan]

I went with McNabb. No real rhyme or reason. I just like his brand of football. He can put a team on his back ( and has ) and will them to win. The other QBs all have something to lean on.

NIN, ummmm....... No one has voted for McNabb:unsure

[Nintova]

Fixed ! :) I guess I forgot to click the lil button:blush

[ZachLV27]

Being "clutch" is one of the worst things to judge someone on. It's impossible to really track and is quite misleading too.

Is someone more clutch if they lead their team to a last second win or is someone more clutch if they have a good, consistent game that leads their team to a 14 point win? What if that QB that lead his team to a last second win was a part of the reason they were in that position because he threw two big interceptions in the first half?

I know I'm going off on my own little rant, but this subject has always bugged me. You always hear about MLB players who aren't clutch because they don't come through in the 9th with the game on the line. People completely ignore the fact that his 45+ home runs are a big reason for many of their other wins though.

[GoPats]

What would have been interesting for this article and, I think, easy to do, would have been to list each of the QB's career passer ratings in the regular season vs. the playoffs. Guys who improve when the stakes are raised can be defined as "clutch." Those who don't, shouldn't.

I don't know off the top of my head who's in what category, but I do know that Brady's playoff numbers are better than his career regular season numbers. And I know that Manning's are worse in the playoffs.

LOL, I guess some people will always saddle Brady and the Pats with the asterisk. I don't know how anyone can say he "choked" in the SB against the Giants though. Throwing a go-ahead TD with less than three minutes left and then getting the ball back inside your 20 with less than 30 seconds left in the game... well, that's not really on you. The Patriots' defense, and particularly their secondary, was at fault for that game, IMO.

[Sect309Fan]

I don't know how anyone can say he "choked" in the SB against the Giants though. Throwing a go-ahead TD with less than three minutes left and then getting the ball back inside your 20 with less than 30 seconds left in the game... well, that's not really on you. The Patriots' defense, and particularly their secondary, was at fault for that game, IMO.

Boy, that sounds just like Kurt Warner last year. (and neither one are "chokers" IMO)

[GoPats]

Boy, that sounds just like Kurt Warner last year. (and neither one are "chokers" IMO)

People forget details over time. For all intents and purposes it looked like that game was (finally) over when Moss brought down that TD.

Then you had the David Tyree catch (never should have happened... Jarvis Green had Eli dead-to-rights and pulled up, and even Tyree said he makes that catch once in a hundred tries)... the Asante Samuel drop on an easy INT... the Giants were just the team of destiny that year, no doubt.

I would have liked to see a different approach in the last 30 seconds other than four 65-yard desperation bombs to Moss. I guess they were playing for the flag.

[Sect309Fan]

I would have liked to see a different approach in the last 30 seconds other than four 65-yard desperation bombs to Moss. I guess they were playing for the flag.

I will say that it is so hard to drive he field with less than a minute left. Two minutes..sure. But when you have so little time and no timeouts, it is almost a given that you will lose the game.

I just think back to the Titans-Ravens playoff game this past season. Collins just didn't have much of chance to get into position to tie the game at the end, especially with that wind.

The only game that I remember recently where a team was able to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat with less than a minute left was the Atlanta-Chicago game last year. It took two perfect passes and great sideline awareness for Atlanta to win that one.

[titansikou]

'Clutchness' is all to do with how well a qb handles pressure of a do or die situation. It's not an all-round assessment. I'm sure you all have seen something like this at work: someone who does so well ordinarily, but then you get a short-notice order or whatever and the pressure is amped up and this person starts making mistakes. Big Ben handles pressure well, so does Brady. I chose Brady because he's unflappable under pressure.

[gnarl]

too me, football may possibly be the hardest sport to judge on being "clutch"

for example...this past superbowl.
was Big Ben clutch leading that drive and pass to Holmes, or was Holmes the clutch player catching i think it was 3-4 passes on the drive and the TD.

football is as team as it gets, and i think its a better argument to say a team is clutch rather than a player.

now with basketball...thats alot easier to Judge when you can say a team is down by 5 points with 30 seconds left and a player makes a three, plays great defensive causing a turnover and making a game winning 3 and so forth.

cause in football, superbowl another example..what if Holmes didnt get both feet in bounds or drops that pass...is ben still considered a clutch player?

football is a game that most of the time is determined on the big plays.

i think playmaker or big play threat is a better way to describe someone rather than clutch.

[shadowboxin']

Whatever the definition of clutch may be... Tony Romo is not it.

[TitansGiantsBears]

I don't know how anyone can say he "choked" in the SB against the Giants though. Throwing a go-ahead TD with less than three minutes left and then getting the ball back inside your 20 with less than 30 seconds left in the game... well, that's not really on you. The Patriots' defense, and particularly their secondary, was at fault for that game, IMO.

I would say Brady choked in the Super Bowl big time. A player comes off a 50 TD season and led his team to an NFL record in points scored on the way to a perfect record and he can only generate 14 points against a wild-card 10-6 team? His play was ineffectual the entire game up until that drive in which he was 8 of 11. Even with that drive his yards per attempt was a paltry 5.5. Those are Vince Young numbers. He was sacked 5 times, a few of them for holding onto the football too long. He fumbled away a good drive in the 2nd quarter just before halftime that even with a field goal would have stretched their lead to 7 points. The Pats moved from their own 11 to the Giants 44 yard line. They were near field goal range and Brady laid the ball on the carpet. I find it interesting that you lay the blame for the loss on the defense and the secondary in particular when they only allowed 17 points. When you have the NFL's highest-scoring offense in history, you allow 5 sacks, and you can't score more than 14 points, it's hard to point a finger at the defense who held the opponent to a point total in the teens.

Put it this way.... if Peyton Manning had the same game against the Bears and lost it would be offered as "proof" that he was a choker.

[GoPats]

I would say Brady choked in the Super Bowl big time. A player comes off a 50 TD season and led his team to an NFL record in points scored on the way to a perfect record and he can only generate 14 points against a wild-card 10-6 team? His play was ineffectual the entire game up until that drive in which he was 8 of 11. Even with that drive his yards per attempt was a paltry 5.5. Those are Vince Young numbers. He was sacked 5 times, a few of them for holding onto the football too long. He fumbled away a good drive in the 2nd quarter just before halftime that even with a field goal would have stretched their lead to 7 points. The Pats moved from their own 11 to the Giants 44 yard line. They were near field goal range and Brady laid the ball on the carpet. I find it interesting that you lay the blame for the loss on the defense and the secondary in particular when they only allowed 17 points. When you have the NFL's highest-scoring offense in history, you allow 5 sacks, and you can't score more than 14 points, it's hard to point a finger at the defense who held the opponent to a point total in the teens.

Put it this way.... if Peyton Manning had the same game against the Bears and lost it would be offered as "proof" that he was a choker.

That Giants team was playing out of its mind though. I'm not sure the conventional rules of wisdom apply. To say there were protection breakdowns would be the understatement of the year. Brady was running for his life for most of that game, and put his team up with less than three minutes to go. A first-half fumble aside, I'm not sure what else he could have done.

Did he play a great game? No, especially when you consider the season he had just completed. But he also didn't do anything to lose the game for his team.

[Jones31]

What would have been interesting for this article and, I think, easy to do, would have been to list each of the QB's career passer ratings in the regular season vs. the playoffs. Guys who improve when the stakes are raised can be defined as "clutch." Those who don't, shouldn't.

I don't know off the top of my head who's in what category, but I do know that Brady's playoff numbers are better than his career regular season numbers. And I know that Manning's are worse in the playoffs.

LOL, I guess some people will always saddle Brady and the Pats with the asterisk. I don't know how anyone can say he "choked" in the SB against the Giants though. Throwing a go-ahead TD with less than three minutes left and then getting the ball back inside your 20 with less than 30 seconds left in the game... well, that's not really on you. The Patriots' defense, and particularly their secondary, was at fault for that game, IMO.

coughOffensive linecough

[GoPats]

coughOffensive linecough

LOL, ya think? :lol

People were praising the line all year, but personally I think it was smoke and mirrors. They've never been that good on the line... the G-men exposed them, IMO. If the Pats' line plays well, it's the result of game planning. One-for-one, they're not that big/strong/talented, etc.

[Jones31]

Since I didn't get to see all of the wk 17 game. I don't recall them being swiss cheese when I did see some of it. They got punk'd big time. Not taking anything away from the G-men they looked liked men vs boys that game.

[GoPats]

Since I didn't get to see all of the wk 17 game. I don't recall them being swiss cheese when I did see some of it. They got punk'd big time. Not taking anything away from the G-men they looked liked men vs boys that game.

The Week 17 game was similar... NY gave the Pats all they could handle. Clearly Coughlin learned from that game and then rode the momentum into the postseason.

[Jones31]

Did the O-line look as bad then?

[Titanico]

Ok..I feel aggraviated. Why Cutler was included under OTHER? :boohoo

[GoPats]

Did the O-line look as bad then?

Just about. It wasn't as bad as the SB, but it wasn't pretty.

[t1tan5]

I voted for Brady. 3 Superbowls, all of them requiring late 4th quarter scores, speak for themselves. One thing I don't understand: how could someone ever vote for Romo or Cutler in this category?

[Sect309Fan]

I voted for Brady. 3 Superbowls, all of them requiring late 4th quarter scores, speak for themselves. One thing I don't understand: how could someone ever vote for Romo or Cutler in this category?

No one voted for Romo. ;)

As for Cutler, he does have his clutch moments. He has had some impressive last minute drives in both college and the pros for wins. He just isn't as consistently clutch as most of these other QBs listed.

[t1tan5]

No one voted for Romo. ;)

As for Cutler, he does have his clutch moments. He has had some impressive last minute drives in both college and the pros for wins. He just isn't as consistently clutch as most of these other QBs listed.

A well deserved doughnut for Romo. As for Cutler, I really didn't like the meltdown he, along with his entire team, had last season. That whole fiasco results in big time negative points on the clutchness factor for me.

[TitansGiantsBears]

By the way, I voted for Big Ben. Two Super Bowls in three years. As far as we know they were all won on the field and not in the film room. For a guy his age, he already has an impressive resume.

[Jones31]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/02/05/1139189009_7117.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/super_bowl_40/ref.bmp

http://www.steelers12thman.com/steeler7lp.jpg

Yep easy to win when the refs are on the payroll.

[TitansGiantsBears]

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/02/05/1139189009_7117.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/super_bowl_40/ref.bmp

http://www.steelers12thman.com/steeler7lp.jpg

Yep easy to win when the refs are on the payroll.

Ok, I have to give you that one. :thumbsup The refs handed that game to the Steelers. I pulled for the Steelers in that game and still have to admit there was no way in hell Seattle was going to win that game. I'm honestly not sure the refs would have let Arizona win this year's game either.

[titansikou]

. I pulled for the Steelers in that game and still have to admit there was no way in hell Seattle was going to win that game.

Me too.

[Titans and Turtles]

I don't like the man. I hate him, in fact. And yes, he's coming off an injury, and yes, he "choked" a single superbowl.

But when you look at his body of work, over a career, I cannot put any QB in that group ahead of Brady when it comes to clutch. The man made the remarkable into the routine in the biggest of big games with such regularity it was a shock when he finally stumbled a time or two.

I don't like Brady, I never will. But you give the devil his due.

Edit- P.S. - The only other way I could have used my vote and still remain honest to myself was if I could have used my vote to give a negative score to Tony Romo. A "0" is not sufficient to describe his (in)abilities in "clutch" time.

[TitansGiantsBears]

I don't like Brady, I never will. But you give the devil his due.




Before the contoversy I gave Brady his due with much the same attitude. I didn't like him, but I put him right there with the greats in some categories. The next few seasons will define Brady's legacy in my opinion. Take away knowing the defensive call and let's see how good he is. To me he's at square one.

[Jones31]

Then I would have to ask why you are over looking 2007.

[GoPats]

Before the contoversy I gave Brady his due with much the same attitude. I didn't like him, but I put him right there with the greats in some categories. The next few seasons will define Brady's legacy in my opinion. Take away knowing the defensive call and let's see how good he is. To me he's at square one.

Even if you're in the school of thought that still puts that much credibility into "Spygate"...

I have to re-ask the same question as Jones. What about 2007? Do you honestly think the Patriots continued to use footage to gain an unfair advantage somehow? The "controversy" came up in Week 1.

And, all homerism aside, I've never seen anyone play the position better than Brady did in '07. I don't know anyone could say they have.

[Yvette]

OT here but I read Brady's rehab is coming along great!

[GoPats]

OT here but I read Brady's rehab is coming along great!

Better than expected, apparently...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4222326

[Nintova]

Personally I think Brady is perhaps the most over hyped player in a long long time. He is in a perfect system for a QB ( screen 50% of the time ) amazing O-line .. great defense. The proof is Matt "who?!?" Cassel. He takes the reigns and the machine works. Add in a lil spygate for flavor and you have a recipe for a "Most Clutch" QB. I would submit that Stephen Gostkowski and Adam Vinatieri were FAR more clutch in the SB wins . . .

Wanna see clutch ? Watch the last drive of the Iggles in Brady's first Superbowl. Donovan was a exactly what you want a QB to be. Even after throwing 3 ints, and facing a stellar defense, he delivered when he needed to. Iggles lost because Nate Kaeding missed a FG.

[Jones31]

Gostkowski never won a Super Bowl
Nate Kaeding has never played in a Super Bowl.
McNabb never delivered in a Super Bowl. Unless you count a game sealing INT.

[LB]

I voted for Big Ben

Jay Cutler should not be on the list imo. He has been terrible in big games.

[TitansGiantsBears]

Even if you're in the school of thought that still puts that much credibility into "Spygate"...

I have to re-ask the same question as Jones. What about 2007? Do you honestly think the Patriots continued to use footage to gain an unfair advantage somehow? The "controversy" came up in Week 1.

And, all homerism aside, I've never seen anyone play the position better than Brady did in '07. I don't know anyone could say they have.

I chalk 2007 up to several factors...

The team struggled to find an identity running the ball in '07. While they had no 1,000 yard rusher in '06 either, the duo of Dillon and Maroney was highly effective.

Much of the stats compiled were done so in blow-out wins.

There is the Randy Moss factor as well. Duante was a much different QB with Moss in the lineup than without.

Who is to say New England didn't merely find a new way to cheat? They showed they weren't above such tactics as an organization. To me, if a team is caught blatantly cheating and suddenly rips of 18 straight wins, I'm suspicious they haven't found a new way to beat the system.

As far as not seeing anyone play the position as well as Brady in '07, I have to disagree. In my opinion the single greatest season I've ever seen from a QB was Kurt Warner's 1999 season.

There have been five seasons in league history which a QB has passed for 40 or more TD passes - Brady, Manning, Marino twice, and Warner once. Of that group he's the only one to do so and lead his team to a Super Bowl win, win the league MVP, and the Super Bowl MVP. Like Dungy during Manning's monster season, Vermeil often let off the throttle and didn't completely embarrass the losing team.

I actually rank the five greatest seasons by a QB as follows....

1. Kurt Warner 1999 For the reasons already stated.

2. Brett Favre 1996... one TD shy of 40, league MVP, and a Super Bowl win.

3. Dan Marino 1984 ... 5,000 yards and 48 TDs, both records at the time, a league MVP and a Super Bowl loss.

4a. Manning 2004 ... could have easily put up 50 plus TDs, but went to the running game to not embarrass the other team. Knelt down in Baltimore game inside the Ravens 10 yard line to end a game.

4b. Tom Brady 2007... assuming it was a legitimate feat and not some creative new cheating scheme. The only reason I rank it lower than Manning is that the Pats didn't let up one time. They were throwing the ball up to the final horn on opponents that were already beaten.

To me the fact that Manning could have put up at least half a dozen more TDs washes with the Super Bowl loss of Brady.

[Jones31]

When TGB talks about Brady it's coming across like this.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2298026810_7006164877.jpg

[GoPats]

Personally I think Brady is perhaps the most over hyped player in a long long time. He is in a perfect system for a QB ( screen 50% of the time ) amazing O-line .. great defense. The proof is Matt "who?!?" Cassel. He takes the reigns and the machine works. Add in a lil spygate for flavor and you have a recipe for a "Most Clutch" QB. I would submit that Stephen Gostkowski and Adam Vinatieri were FAR more clutch in the SB wins . . .

Wanna see clutch ? Watch the last drive of the Iggles in Brady's first Superbowl. Donovan was a exately what you want a QB to be. Even after throwing 3 ints, and facing a stellar defense, he delivered when he needed to. Iggles lost because Nate Kaeding missed a FG.

What?

The Donovan McNabb who was, according to several players, puking in the huddle during the waning moments of the game? Good thing he wasn't playing for overtime. :D

[GoPats]

TGB's standard Brady bashing abridged to one sentence.

Clearly there's no response here that will adequately answer some pretty off-the-wall speculation about "new ways to cheat" and the rest of that... whatever it was. :huh

Look, I know you strongly dislike Brady and the Patriots... that's all well and good. Save the lame ass excuses and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories for the Jags and Colts fans, eh? :toast

Especially the Colts fans...

[TitansGiantsBears]

What?

The Donovan McNabb who was, according to several players, puking in the huddle during the waning moments of the game? Good thing he wasn't playing for overtime. :D

I have to agree with GoPats on this one. When I think of clutch, Donovan McNabb is nowhere in the equation.

[TitansGiantsBears]

When TGB talks about Brady it's coming across like this.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2298026810_7006164877.jpg

So the '07 Patriots didn't struggle to find an identity in the running game, especially early in the season?

Let me clear up a little of that static, Jones31. :D

That year Brady was 64/102 for 793 yards and 7 TDs in the fourth quarter of games in which they won by at least 10 points. That was over 12 games. 11 of those games they won by at least 17 points. The average margin of victory in these games was 25.2 points.

I'm including the 3rd quarters of the week 11 Buffalo game in which Brady went 9 of 12 for 86 yards and a touchdown in the third and fourth quarters after leading 35-7 at halftime and the week 16 Miami game in which NE led 28-0 at the half yet Brady threw the ball 15 times in the second half. I include these because it would be considered "garbage time".

Compare that to the most comparable season statistically to Brady, Manning's 2004 season. The Colts often blew opponents out of the water that year as well, but turned off the juice later in the game.

The Colts won 7 games by 10 or more points that year. In those 7 games, Manning threw only 2 TD passes in the fourth quarter, both against the Titans. In the first game he threw a 1 yarder to Marcus Pollard to tie it up, but the Colts scored two more times on us, both on Edge rushes. The second game against the Titans was the only "stat-padder" in the bunch, a 10 yarder to Marvin Harrison when the Colts were up by 17 in the 4th.

Manning left in the 3rd or 4th quarter against the Bears and Lions. In the second Houston game the Colts knelt on the ball inside the Texans 10 yard line at the end of the game. They did the same in the Baltimore game at the 1yard line. Manning could have easily topped 55 TDs that year, but the coach had too much class.

That said, I don't fault Brady for running the plays given to him. He did his job and did it admirably assuming the feat doesn't need an asterik. Still, an awful lot of Brady's "production" came in garbage time of big blowouts when most teams would run the football.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. :lol

Edit: And I'm not using Manning to say he had a better season than Brady or whatever. To me their seasons are 4a and 4b... nearly interchangeable. I'm making the point that a lot of Brady's production came in garbage time compared to the other QB's on the list.

[GoPats]

So the '07 Patriots didn't struggle to find an identity in the running game, especially early in the season?

I'm making the point that a lot of Brady's production came in garbage time compared to the other QB's on the list.


Just a few counter-points:

1. When you win the way NE did in 2007, 50 to 75% of the game is "garbage time." They were blowing teams out on both sides of the ball. If I remember right, there were only four truly competitive regular season games (Indy, Baltimore, Philly, and the Giants). If you think it would have been better, or more to the point "classier" (I hate that word), to kneel on the ball once you go up by 20 or more points, that's cool. But that's a completely different topic. You can't discount one player's statistics versus another's based on variables and subjective factors. In other words, why should it matter how they accrued those stats? Would it have been more respectable in your mind if the Patriots had won 16 games that year by an average score of 42-30?

2. The plan for the season was to throw the ball early, then throw it some more, and then throw it some more. By the time the playoffs rolled around, they actually had the running game pretty well cranked up. That wasn't the case in the Super Bowl, but in the stretch run and the playoffs Maroney was a factor. When you play half your schedule in New England, you have to know you're not going to be able to air it out all the time in November and December. The pass-heavy offense early in the season was 100% deliberate. They also had a very thin RB corps, as Morris was lost for the season in the Dallas game (October) and Maroney was also banged up most of the year.

3. A lot of people criticized the Patriots and Belichick for running up scores, just like you're doing now. Again, that's a matter of opinion, and it's all well and good. I've said it many times... I don't really care if Belichick is a jerk as a person. He's a football coach, not my kid's kindergarten teacher. Not everyone running a team in the NFL is going to be Tony Dungy. The fact of the matter is that the Patriots had most of those games won by halftime, and many of them in the first quarter, which was unprecendented in the NFL. In Manning's big season in '04, the Colts were not as dominant as the Patriots were. So you're talking about a team walking on uncharted ground. Would it have been a good idea to fold up the tents at halftime of every game and put all of the backups in? Maybe. But I don't think anyone could deny the possibility of that really undermining the overall effort. If you're tanking it after a single half of football, you run the risk of your guys losing their edge. Aside from all this... it's a defense's job to stop the opposing team. It's not an offense's job to say, "OK, that's enough" and then take the foot off the gas pedal. After all, didn't the Titans lose a game that season after it looked like a complete blow-out?

[Nintova]

Holy cripes I make mistakes when I'm sleep deprived !!! Apologies all around. I'm all caught up. Sorry to stir the pot with prattle. I was mixing up an afc champ game ( pats / chargers ) with everything else .. wow. I wish my computer had a safety where-by when I log on, it checks my metal state and wont let me post if I'm on queer street :) I can't even blame drinking as I don't drink at all ... low point in my posting career.

['Nator]

Tom Brady had the greatest single season for a QB and 2nd is not really that close. Mariino still holds the yardage record and threw 48 tds but he did throw 17 ints.


Brady not only threw 50TD but he only threw 8ints in 578 attempts! That is just mother f'ing REMARKABLE. Someone may eventually break that TD mark, though it will be tough, but how are you EVER going to match that TD to INT ratio?

The guy is a football genius, he is handsome and has everything going for him. The thing I hate most about him is there is hardly anything to hate about the guy. He lives a charmed life. I will be interested to see how he handles this adversity. Reminds me of Montana coming back from injury in, I think it was 86. He may be a little less Brady like this coming year but once he finally heals he will be putting up great numbers for years to come.

Any argument against that 07 season is bankrupt. 50TDs to 8int. Good God man. The guy threw 42 more TDs than INTs in a single season.

[Yvette]

A lot of people criticized the Patriots and Belichick for running up scores, just like you're doing now.
I used to beach a lot about that kind of thing but I would love to see us do it once in a while. It's great for the players and, if there's a tie going into the playoffs, those points determine seeding.


The thing I hate most about him is there is hardly anything to hate about the guy.
I briefly hated him when he lobbed some snarky comments at the Titans, but I also remember how complimentary he was in January '03. The former is just not enough for me to loathe him. If he's really doing as well rehabbing as the reports say, I'd take him as my QB in a heartbeat.

[GoPats]

The thing I hate most about him is there is hardly anything to hate about the guy.

This reminded me of a story... may have even heard it on the TOMB.

Someone was saying that Brady is like the guy who's now dating your ex-girlfriend. You want to hate him, but then you meet him... and you don't hate him. And it kills you that you don't. But you still don't. LOL!!!

['Nator]

You ever seen "Forgetting Sarah Marshall"?

[GoPats]

You ever seen "Forgetting Sarah Marshall"?

Seen it?

Jeebus, I've done everything possible to FORGET the first 10 minutes, LOL!

Other than that though... good flick. And good comparison. :toast

[Jones31]

That movie is on all the time.... should I waste the time and watch it?

[Comar]

That movie is on all the time.... should I waste the time and watch it?

It has some funny, and interesting moments. :D

[Orca]

John Unitas.

[Nintova]

The Fossil :)

[Orca]

The Fossil :)

One supposes that you are referring to the man who DEFINED the modern QB position?

Orca also wonders whether those folks who are bad mouthing P. Manning wouldnt be delighted if he were a Titan? Really, give me a break! Manning or McNair? Hands down Manning! Let's not even talk about the successors...

[Jones31]

I'm not sure I'd bring myself to admitting to being a fan if that were the case. I don't know what is worse Manning fans who cheer for the Colts or Manning fans who still wear his Tennessee jersey and cheer for the Titans.

[TitansGiantsBears]

Just a few counter-points:

1. When you win the way NE did in 2007, 50 to 75% of the game is "garbage time." They were blowing teams out on both sides of the ball. If I remember right, there were only four truly competitive regular season games (Indy, Baltimore, Philly, and the Giants). If you think it would have been better, or more to the point "classier" (I hate that word), to kneel on the ball once you go up by 20 or more points, that's cool. But that's a completely different topic. You can't discount one player's statistics versus another's based on variables and subjective factors. In other words, why should it matter how they accrued those stats? Would it have been more respectable in your mind if the Patriots had won 16 games that year by an average score of 42-30?

2. The plan for the season was to throw the ball early, then throw it some more, and then throw it some more. By the time the playoffs rolled around, they actually had the running game pretty well cranked up. That wasn't the case in the Super Bowl, but in the stretch run and the playoffs Maroney was a factor. When you play half your schedule in New England, you have to know you're not going to be able to air it out all the time in November and December. The pass-heavy offense early in the season was 100% deliberate. They also had a very thin RB corps, as Morris was lost for the season in the Dallas game (October) and Maroney was also banged up most of the year.

3. A lot of people criticized the Patriots and Belichick for running up scores, just like you're doing now. Again, that's a matter of opinion, and it's all well and good. I've said it many times... I don't really care if Belichick is a jerk as a person. He's a football coach, not my kid's kindergarten teacher. Not everyone running a team in the NFL is going to be Tony Dungy. The fact of the matter is that the Patriots had most of those games won by halftime, and many of them in the first quarter, which was unprecendented in the NFL. In Manning's big season in '04, the Colts were not as dominant as the Patriots were. So you're talking about a team walking on uncharted ground. Would it have been a good idea to fold up the tents at halftime of every game and put all of the backups in? Maybe. But I don't think anyone could deny the possibility of that really undermining the overall effort. If you're tanking it after a single half of football, you run the risk of your guys losing their edge. Aside from all this... it's a defense's job to stop the opposing team. It's not an offense's job to say, "OK, that's enough" and then take the foot off the gas pedal. After all, didn't the Titans lose a game that season after it looked like a complete blow-out?

Actually if you remember from the old board, I was one of a handful of people defending the Pats from accusations of running up the score. I have absolutely no problem with a team scoring as many points as they can. They're all professionals. It was the Patriots' opponents' job to stop the Pats. If they can win 100-0 then so be it. If Washington didn't want the Pats to hang half-a-hundred on them, then it was up to the Redskins to stop them. I'll never hold that against a professional team. I'm sorry if my post came across like I was bitching about running up the score.

My point was that Brady's '07 season was inflated by a lot of garbage-time stats. Is he the only player to ever benefit from garbage stats? Absolutely not. It used to be how the Cowboys rolled in the '90s with much of Emmitt's rushing production coming in the fourth quarter of some blow-out wins. I don't take anything away from Brady's production, other than questioning the legitimacy of it in the first place, but since it's impossible to prove any allegations of further cheating, I accept it for what the NFL says it is.

Still, even the most ardent Pats supporter has to realize that Manning could have hung another 7-10 TDs on opponents in '04. For that matter, so could Brady in '07. Cassel and Gutierrez both saw limited action in several games that season. Who knows where either Brady or Manning could've ended up if they pushed it?

Either way, they both had seasons for the ages, but I don't think either of them had the season Warner and Favre did because their magic seasons ended with them hoisting the Lombardi Trophy while Manning and Brady watched someone else raise it at the end of their great seasons.

[TitansGiantsBears]

From my own post -


I don't take anything away from Brady's production, other than questioning the legitimacy of it in the first place...

So those two statements are contradictory in and of themselves. So what? This is a message board! I'm not required to make sense. :toast

[slkHORN]

TB, and now i need a shower. the thing is, pressure just doesn't phase the guy, it elevates him and if i have that list to pick from and the game is on the line, Brady is where i'm going.

[TitansGiantsBears]

TB, and now i need a shower. the thing is, pressure just doesn't phase the guy, it elevates him and if i have that list to pick from and the game is on the line, Brady is where i'm going.

Did you watch the New York-New England Super Bowl? Brady was the same as any other QB in the league with pressure in his face. I could think of other reasons to vote Brady but that statement just doesn't ring true any more.